I love your message so much! I think I accidentally might have "built something new" when I made the conscious decision to invite only four friends to my birthday brunch. It's hard for me to do small gatherings because I don't have one tight group of friends; I wish I did but it hasn't worked out that way. Rather, I have many friends, many of whom aren't connected to each other. But after my birthday brunch, our small crew got together for another brunch! And we planned a girls weekend! Maybe I'm creating the small group I always wanted!?
YES! I think you did!! In this week's episode, my guest, Amy, talks about how she couldn't plan her own 40th because she was so terrified to leave anyone out. She wasn't going to do anything for her birthday because that fear was so debilitating. A few of her friends insisted on planning something anyway. She tells it better in the episode! But I love that you went ahead and figured out something small that clearly hit the mark for the others.
Yes!!! When I remember having this fear as a teenager "What if all my different friends don't get along?"... But the more I went ahead and planned something anyway and saw that that was never the case, the more I've actually looked forward to getting my friends together even if the only common denominator was me. It always works out. (I mean almost always. I did have one friend who was fond of asking intensely, embarrassingly personal questions and many of my friends were scared of her, but we're not as close anymore!)
You are spot on all counts. I was recently on a trip to Mexico with 17 women. Due to an innocent misunderstanding or miscommunication, one of them missed a hacienda tour and immediately went to, "You all left me! No one noticed I was missing! I guess I'm not part of this group anymore. I'm going home!"
When we made our way as a group to the other activity on this outing, swimming in an underground cave, she crossed her arms and declared, "I am not talking to ANYBODY!"
She calmed down and didn't go home, but never acknowledged or apologized for her poor behavior, and several other women confided in me they do no want to travel with her again.
I have said many times that the hardest ongoing practice of adulthood is separating what you feel from what you know.
Did she feel left out? Absolutely.
Should she have known that 16 women did not collectively decide to exclude her from a portion of an outing we were on? Absolutely.
The mom missed an opportunity 20 years ago to learn from the experience about *why* she may have been excluded from the trip. It's possible the other friends were mean girls. It's also possible she was blind to some alienating behaviors. She'll never know.
And yes, it's impossible for her daughter - or any of us - to include everyone in everything. No one has a right to our time and attention. She's setting her daughter up for a lot of unhealthy and potentially dangerous people-pleasing .
I'm so thrilled you shared this story. This line will especially stay with me: "I have said many times that the hardest ongoing practice of adulthood is separating what you feel from what you know." That is RIGHT. Just SO right. I've often said that assuming the worst is the issue in 75% of the letters I receive. Meanwhile, now you have an issue on your hands for the next trip. Yikes.
I'm also reading The Latecomer, in print, and it's a bit depressing for me. Everyone in this family is alone (I can't even say alone together because they are not together.) I had to put it away for a week or so before I decided to continue. Now I'm at the turning point, so I will continue, but I still don't actually care about any the people involved except Rochelle and Phoebe.
I did love The Plot, by the same author, it actually spoiled me for Yellowface, as I thought The Plot was superior.
I totally hear you. There's a darkness that just feels so sad. And also kind of spoiled of these kids? Like what was SO bad that everyone is so angry and despondent all the time. I agree the addition of Rochelle adds a ton. I'm still around where I said (60%) because I was busy writing this newsletter and editing next week's podcast ep. But I am curious about what happens next, which says a lot. I do plan to read The Plot. I've heard great things.
As a Neurodivergent human, something about this episode and article hit differently. With a lifetime of friendship struggles, I sought out resources and found your podcast and have been an early listener grateful for positive tips and advice. With this one, I kept thinking... it's not that easy for everyone. Yes, kids should be taught to advocate for their needs in all relationships and not be forced into uncomfortable situations, but that's a different conversation entirely. I'm going to assume that this mother has had separate conversations teaching her child about consent and advocating for herself and her needs.
Teaching our kids to be inclusive is equally valid.
When you said, "This is an active choice she is making—one that she’s modeling for her daughter," it felt dismissive towards that mom's experience, and really to anyone that could be struggling with friendships or have similarly traumatic experiences with friendships. How do you know it's a choice for her? After my own traumatic friendship experience, my brain built fortified walls around my heart. It didn't mean that I didn't crave friendship, or choose to be brave and try to make new friends - but that trauma left a deep scar. A scar I deal with and heal from, but it's not as easy as a choice to not allow it to impact relationships and to imply I'm modeling the wrong thing for my kids by being guarded and encouraging inclusiveness feels... wrong.
I'm still processing and trying to figure out what exactly my brain is thinking.
It must be nice to be the one that gets to have lots of friends to choose a smaller group from... I'd settle for one or two solid friendships.
I guess I was left feeling like this podcast I've enjoyed may not be as inclusive towards neurodivergent perspectives... and that's okay, it doesn't have to be. It's a similar feeling of realizing a "friend" isn't the safe space I had expected either.
Nikki, thank you for speaking up and expressing your experience and point of view. I definitely didn't mean to make it sound like it would be easy to just move on when anyone has been hurt. I'm so sorry it came off that way. I'm sure in a quick episode like this (and a short newsletter), I did not do an adequate job communicating how hard I know it to be-- both for me and for others.
In my example of moving here, for instance, while it was just a few lines in the podcast, it took me MANY years not to dwell on that particular rejection or not to feel terrible around those people when I saw them. I really do know it's not easy for anyone. And I've had several painful friendship breakups that took many, many years to move on from. By move on, I mean, not constantly think about it or lack trust in others. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's even more difficult from a neurodivergent perspective.
I deeply apologize for coming off dismissive. My biggest desire for the episode was for anyone in that mom's position to hopefully stay open to one day connecting with someone else, maybe even others who have been hurt. I hear from so many who have been hurt over the years and I wish I could introduce them to each other. But people live all over the place and most are anonymous when they write on my form. I was hoping to capture a message for others in general, not really for this one mom in the video.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I can understand how hard it is to cover the nuance of a situation in a short episode or newsletter.
Unfortunately, what I heard was don't teach your kids to be inclusive because it's normal to exclude people, and to some extent, I agree. I don't expect to be invited to every brunch or get together, sure there's a pang of disappointment to miss out on the fun, but to be excluded from a birthday trip... OUCH! One of the other commenters mentioned that a woman on a trip should not have assumed that collectively the group decided not to include her, but the realization that not one of the other 16 people cared about her enough to notice she wasn't there... OUCH!
I would love to listen to an episode someday about neurodivergent friendships. The struggles, the beauty, similarities and differences... I don't think 15 minutes would be enough!
I definitely think adults need to teach kids to be inclusive. My point was a little different than that, but I really do hear you in how it came off that way.
I had a very similar thought about a need for an episode like that!! It will be a while because podcasting is a slow process--at least it is for me because I do the entire thing myself. When I hear bigger podcasters thanks whole production teams at the end of episodes, I remind myself it's okay it takes me a long time. One day I aspire to hire people to help with the techy parts! But I will do an episode on that topic, and I will make sure to have the right guest.
I'm grateful to you for having this conversation with me. I'm glad it's here for anyone else who is/was feeling the same way. Thank you for your honesty. Nina :)
I love your message so much! I think I accidentally might have "built something new" when I made the conscious decision to invite only four friends to my birthday brunch. It's hard for me to do small gatherings because I don't have one tight group of friends; I wish I did but it hasn't worked out that way. Rather, I have many friends, many of whom aren't connected to each other. But after my birthday brunch, our small crew got together for another brunch! And we planned a girls weekend! Maybe I'm creating the small group I always wanted!?
YES! I think you did!! In this week's episode, my guest, Amy, talks about how she couldn't plan her own 40th because she was so terrified to leave anyone out. She wasn't going to do anything for her birthday because that fear was so debilitating. A few of her friends insisted on planning something anyway. She tells it better in the episode! But I love that you went ahead and figured out something small that clearly hit the mark for the others.
Yes!!! When I remember having this fear as a teenager "What if all my different friends don't get along?"... But the more I went ahead and planned something anyway and saw that that was never the case, the more I've actually looked forward to getting my friends together even if the only common denominator was me. It always works out. (I mean almost always. I did have one friend who was fond of asking intensely, embarrassingly personal questions and many of my friends were scared of her, but we're not as close anymore!)
This whole concept of mixing friends or not is really episode worthy. Let's do it this summer maybe??
I'm in!
"When you focus on those rejecting you, you reject those focusing on you." - Me
I tend to forget my own advice sometimes though. :) I agree that friendship is worth pursuing, even when we've been hurt!
That is a great quote!!! Let's use it when we record. Don't forget!
I appreciate your voice on friendship so much AND I get recipes out of it?!?! Am going to make that white chili!
Lol YES-- friendship AND recipes. :) I aim to please!
You are spot on all counts. I was recently on a trip to Mexico with 17 women. Due to an innocent misunderstanding or miscommunication, one of them missed a hacienda tour and immediately went to, "You all left me! No one noticed I was missing! I guess I'm not part of this group anymore. I'm going home!"
When we made our way as a group to the other activity on this outing, swimming in an underground cave, she crossed her arms and declared, "I am not talking to ANYBODY!"
She calmed down and didn't go home, but never acknowledged or apologized for her poor behavior, and several other women confided in me they do no want to travel with her again.
I have said many times that the hardest ongoing practice of adulthood is separating what you feel from what you know.
Did she feel left out? Absolutely.
Should she have known that 16 women did not collectively decide to exclude her from a portion of an outing we were on? Absolutely.
The mom missed an opportunity 20 years ago to learn from the experience about *why* she may have been excluded from the trip. It's possible the other friends were mean girls. It's also possible she was blind to some alienating behaviors. She'll never know.
And yes, it's impossible for her daughter - or any of us - to include everyone in everything. No one has a right to our time and attention. She's setting her daughter up for a lot of unhealthy and potentially dangerous people-pleasing .
I'm so thrilled you shared this story. This line will especially stay with me: "I have said many times that the hardest ongoing practice of adulthood is separating what you feel from what you know." That is RIGHT. Just SO right. I've often said that assuming the worst is the issue in 75% of the letters I receive. Meanwhile, now you have an issue on your hands for the next trip. Yikes.
I'm also reading The Latecomer, in print, and it's a bit depressing for me. Everyone in this family is alone (I can't even say alone together because they are not together.) I had to put it away for a week or so before I decided to continue. Now I'm at the turning point, so I will continue, but I still don't actually care about any the people involved except Rochelle and Phoebe.
I did love The Plot, by the same author, it actually spoiled me for Yellowface, as I thought The Plot was superior.
I totally hear you. There's a darkness that just feels so sad. And also kind of spoiled of these kids? Like what was SO bad that everyone is so angry and despondent all the time. I agree the addition of Rochelle adds a ton. I'm still around where I said (60%) because I was busy writing this newsletter and editing next week's podcast ep. But I am curious about what happens next, which says a lot. I do plan to read The Plot. I've heard great things.
Coming here to say i love this substack and all these resources on friendship. Thank you!
Awww thank you!! I shared an essay of yours last week by the way. Not sure if you got to see it. :)
As a Neurodivergent human, something about this episode and article hit differently. With a lifetime of friendship struggles, I sought out resources and found your podcast and have been an early listener grateful for positive tips and advice. With this one, I kept thinking... it's not that easy for everyone. Yes, kids should be taught to advocate for their needs in all relationships and not be forced into uncomfortable situations, but that's a different conversation entirely. I'm going to assume that this mother has had separate conversations teaching her child about consent and advocating for herself and her needs.
Teaching our kids to be inclusive is equally valid.
When you said, "This is an active choice she is making—one that she’s modeling for her daughter," it felt dismissive towards that mom's experience, and really to anyone that could be struggling with friendships or have similarly traumatic experiences with friendships. How do you know it's a choice for her? After my own traumatic friendship experience, my brain built fortified walls around my heart. It didn't mean that I didn't crave friendship, or choose to be brave and try to make new friends - but that trauma left a deep scar. A scar I deal with and heal from, but it's not as easy as a choice to not allow it to impact relationships and to imply I'm modeling the wrong thing for my kids by being guarded and encouraging inclusiveness feels... wrong.
I'm still processing and trying to figure out what exactly my brain is thinking.
It must be nice to be the one that gets to have lots of friends to choose a smaller group from... I'd settle for one or two solid friendships.
I guess I was left feeling like this podcast I've enjoyed may not be as inclusive towards neurodivergent perspectives... and that's okay, it doesn't have to be. It's a similar feeling of realizing a "friend" isn't the safe space I had expected either.
Nikki, thank you for speaking up and expressing your experience and point of view. I definitely didn't mean to make it sound like it would be easy to just move on when anyone has been hurt. I'm so sorry it came off that way. I'm sure in a quick episode like this (and a short newsletter), I did not do an adequate job communicating how hard I know it to be-- both for me and for others.
In my example of moving here, for instance, while it was just a few lines in the podcast, it took me MANY years not to dwell on that particular rejection or not to feel terrible around those people when I saw them. I really do know it's not easy for anyone. And I've had several painful friendship breakups that took many, many years to move on from. By move on, I mean, not constantly think about it or lack trust in others. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's even more difficult from a neurodivergent perspective.
I deeply apologize for coming off dismissive. My biggest desire for the episode was for anyone in that mom's position to hopefully stay open to one day connecting with someone else, maybe even others who have been hurt. I hear from so many who have been hurt over the years and I wish I could introduce them to each other. But people live all over the place and most are anonymous when they write on my form. I was hoping to capture a message for others in general, not really for this one mom in the video.
Anyway, I see I could have done a better job.
Thank you again for speaking up.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I can understand how hard it is to cover the nuance of a situation in a short episode or newsletter.
Unfortunately, what I heard was don't teach your kids to be inclusive because it's normal to exclude people, and to some extent, I agree. I don't expect to be invited to every brunch or get together, sure there's a pang of disappointment to miss out on the fun, but to be excluded from a birthday trip... OUCH! One of the other commenters mentioned that a woman on a trip should not have assumed that collectively the group decided not to include her, but the realization that not one of the other 16 people cared about her enough to notice she wasn't there... OUCH!
I would love to listen to an episode someday about neurodivergent friendships. The struggles, the beauty, similarities and differences... I don't think 15 minutes would be enough!
I definitely think adults need to teach kids to be inclusive. My point was a little different than that, but I really do hear you in how it came off that way.
I had a very similar thought about a need for an episode like that!! It will be a while because podcasting is a slow process--at least it is for me because I do the entire thing myself. When I hear bigger podcasters thanks whole production teams at the end of episodes, I remind myself it's okay it takes me a long time. One day I aspire to hire people to help with the techy parts! But I will do an episode on that topic, and I will make sure to have the right guest.
I'm grateful to you for having this conversation with me. I'm glad it's here for anyone else who is/was feeling the same way. Thank you for your honesty. Nina :)